Bringing a 1939 '10 engine back to life

[stuartbell]

I am just about to bring a Rover 10 1939 back to life after slumbering for 43 years. This will occur over the next 3-4 weeks (a Christmas project forced on myself by an eager friend!). The objective is to see how viable the powertrain is likely to be on this car, before the major investment of time and money is expended on the bodywork. As far as I know, having discussed this with the previous owner back in 2006 when I collected her from his garage, everything still turns and was a viable means of propulsion back in 1971 when she left the road for the last time - a necessary departure given that the bodywork was largely supported by the fuel tank as-found when I collected her! Fortunately I was able to procure a spare fuel tank for her, before I moved up to the Isle of Skye....

The task of bringing the engine back to life should not present too much of a challenge, as I have a workshop full of diagnostic equipment of every denomination for my everyday occupation as a Diagnostic Engineer. So I am hoping that I should be able probe and camera pretty well everything before a single nut is turned; the coolant hoses are all perished, the sump will need to come off, the sparking plugs are no longer fitted (that's another story, and one that I hope ends happily), and all the fuel components are going to need to be removed&overhauled. This means that access will be good for the endoscopic probe and various pressure and leak-detection adapters, and I should be able to watch each system as it's brought back to life (e.g. the bearings are all going to be pre-pressurised externally with oil to watch how good/bad the clearances are!).

I'm hoping that I have got my guesswork correct on some of the overhaul kits (present access around the engine is very poor, due to the storage position of the car) as she was first registered in August 1939, so making her a long-reach sparking-plug as per the post-war cars. Otherwise I shall be ordering some more parts very soon...

The one item I could do with some detailed advice on is the carburetor. She has an SU, which I believe is the correct one of the year, but I don't know much about the model, or where the best place is to obtain parts (modern fuel-resistant gaskets, etc.) to overhaul this little item. From what I'm able to glean from the forum, my fast-running control is missing altogether (which solved one query I had with the choke controls) as there is only a single cable to the enrichment lever, fortunately still moving the jet assembly smoothly. Was there just one model of SU fitted to these cars, and does an "overhaul" kit exist to service and/or upgrade these? From the general feel of things, notwithstanding the changes that modern petrol will require on the settings, the carburetor may well get away with a new set of seals alone, so I'll have to cross any other bridge when I get there.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide to this introductory post.

[roverdriver]

An engine that has sat for a long time without spark plugs is sure to have, at the minimum, a film of rust inside the cylinders. As you have access to suitable equipment, have a look through the plug holes and study the cylinder walls. A very light film of rust might not be a worry, but rust can tend to become 'gritty' and thereby score the cylinder walls. The other problem could be rust around the piston rings, which of course cannot be seen, but it can cause the rings to lack seal to the cylinder walls. If you decide to see how things go- i.e. a minimum rust film in the bores, then squirt some oil into each one and turn over by hand. The 'manual commencer' is your friend. the 'feel' of the engine as you turn can help you determine how free the engine is, before you try to run it.

Next step would be to ascertain that all valves are operating correctly. It would be fairly common for valves to stick open due to rust on their stems, especially an exhaust valve that has sat in the open position for years.

Assuming the above is taken care of, then hook up a battery and, again turning by hand, check for sparks at the right place and right time. Then insert spark plugs. Turning the crank handle will then help you decide if there is sufficient compression there.

As far as the carburettor goes, I would leave well alone, apart from checking that it is clean inside, and that the air passage is not obstructed with rubbish that could be sucked into the cylinders. Virtually all S.U gaskets from the era can handle modern fuel, and remember that alcohol was a fuel additive well before the car was built. Should you want to rebuild the carby, all parts are available from Burlen Fuel Systems. The 'fast idle' is a function of the mixture enrichment control. The first distance of pulling on the 'choke' button, opens the throttle butterfly slightly while at the same time taking up the slack to lower the jet in the carby.

If the car was taken off the road because of body problems, it is unlikely that there is any obvious or major worry with transmission and diff. Naturally after getting the car running, it might turn out that things are rather worn in those areas and repairs needed. Also remember that there is quite a possibility that the clutch plates might be stuck, and require some help to operate properly.

I hope those thoughts help,
I'll look forward to hearing of progress- and photos please!!
Dane.

[Chris C]

Your probably already in contact with Tim Moore (RSR Regional Rep - Highlands & Islands) who
lives in Portree, details in RSR Yearbook.

For SU Carb bit they can be ordered direct from Burlen (see sucarb.co.uk), they also refurbish carbs,
but are quite expensive. Lots of info on their website.
I had my carb refurbished by a company called the Carburetter Exchange
@ Leighton Buzzard, Beds. ( 01525 371369 carbex.demon.co.uk )
They charged me £120 inc.vat.

Rgds, Chris C.

[stuartbell]

Thanks both for your replies. Be rest-assured that there will be many pictures of the "awakening" as things progress.

I have used Burlen Fuel Systems in the past (I think they go under a different moniker these days?) and have been very happy with their service and parts. I know that these people have invested a lot of time and money into producing good quality pattern parts that meet the rigours of modern gasoline, so it is almost a given point that an engine overhaul will require their parts. Yes, I remember them being quite expensive as well, not least when the packet comes through the post and hardly justifies a stamp!! They say that the best things come in small packages. I shall order one if nobody else in the Register does a kit.

I have contacted Tim Moore once again, an annual event before Christmas, promising that this time I really will get over to see him and have a blether about his car (and mine!). I feel sorry for Tim, to have just one other RSR member on the Isle, only for that member to be permanently up to his eyes in work on other peoples cars....

Thanks for the good tips on the engine items to keep an eye-upon. I had expected to take several days just looking at things before even turning the engine, having had some experience in the past of bring Rover 2000 engines back to life (a different story, and a debacle of my own making with my 1965 2000 before and after the move to Skye). That was part of last Christmas's relaxation.

I shall set-up a photo-bucket somewhere useful, so that I can post the pictures I have of the collection of the Rover 10 from East Sussex in the mid-2000's. I think that I have around 40 or so of the parts all laid-out on the lawn as they were inventoried and packed into my Defender (towing the trailer). The car herself has been nicknamed "Lucy", as she bears (or should still bear) the registration FOH 666. I had one of those annoying letters a few years ago from DVLA, explaining how I had sold this car (I hadn't), which followed just after the latest red V55's came out - I think they had a problem with many cars that were on the V55 system, but were off the road when SORN became viable around 1997/8, so missed out on the SORN declarations each year. No doubt it will all come right in the end, it always does on Skye.....

[TimMoore]

Nice to see you made it onto the RSR Forum, Stuart.

A solid group exists within the RSR as you know with much hard won experience readily available on all aspects of P2.

Parts availability is good thanks to many within the Club, the most experienced suppliers being in my opinion Mike Couldrey and Mike Evans. Their details are in every Freewheel.

Let's hope Lucy rewards your efforts, it won't be easy after such a long sleep and Skye as you well know is hostile to steel and exposed engines....

You know where I am.

Tim Moore.
RSR Regional Rep Nw Highlands and Islands

[TimMoore]

Glad you finally made it onto the RSR Forum Stuart.

A wealth of experience on P2 Rovers exists within the RSR. Parts availibility is good from several suppliers for many once obsolete items. Over many years both zmike zcouldrey and zmuke Evans in particular have assisted me greatly, living as we always have with our own 16 a considerable way away from fellow Rover Enthusiasts firstly in France and Brlgium and of course for the passt 26 years in the Hebrides.

Skye's wet climate will certainly have thwarted and will always be a challenge renovating all things ferrous.

See you soon.

[stuartbell]

Well, I have had my first stroke of luck on this project - the manuals and parts catalogues that I bought for Lucy when I first brought her home, safely ensconsed amongst all my other workshop manuals (i.e. "lost"), have now re-surfaced, including the original "Rover Spares 1934-1940 Ten & Twelve Models" brochure that I found sometime around 2006. So an excellent result for today. My limitations are now purely material.....

[stuartbell]

I have finally got a round to sorting-out some of the photos.

This is the link to the album for the collection of the little lady in 2006;

http://s374.photobucket.com/user/stuart143/library/Lucy

I'll try to organise some of the photos of the components as laid-out on the front lawn when I first looked at her!

[stuartbell]

Well, the progress so far is quite good. Some things are good, some not so good....

The initial inspection of the engine entailed getting Lucy onto the 4-post ramps, at which point we were able to remove the sump-plug and drain the oil into a pan. The oil was thick and heavy, and plenty of initial sludge from the bottom of the sump, but nonetheless it was oil - no water or other condensates. On removal of the sump pickup strainer, the gauze was clean. Once the oil sump was dropped-away, the silt at the bottom was obvious, but the oil around the crankshaft and connecting rods was clean, all the main and b/e bearings seemed good for play, and the level of corrosion within the crankcase was not too bad - some light rusting on the connecting rods for #2 and #4, which soon washed away. All the piston skirts appeared to be in good order, with no rusting to the lower end of the block bores (where visible without turning the crankshaft).

Moving onto the top-end, the borescope revealed (exactly as predicted above) that the upper regions of the bores, to the nearside of the engine (nearest the sparking plug holes) all showed light surface corrosion to varying degrees across the cylinders. As there also appeared to be a series of light rust "rings" lower down one of the bores, the decision was taken straightaway to remove the cylinder head; a decision that was to prove to be an excellent choice....

All components released away from the head area of the engine fairly well, although at at every stage it was clear that this engine has suffered from less-than-careful attention in the distant past. Not least of the issues was that the head-bolts had all been over-tightened to varying degrees, and that the head/block interface was marred by, a) over-compressed/re-used gasket , b) stretched head bolts , and c) marking to both faces of bad-handling by the machine-shops from previous work (light scratches running parallel to each other at various points over the faces). The fortunate aspect of all of this is that the scratches are light, and will not cause too many problems when the time comes to replace the head for running.

The bores have all cleaned-up with oil&Scotchbrite rubbing, and the piston crowns are now all lovely and shiny! It appears that all four cylinders are at +40"thou, but the piston on cyl#2 is of a different make to the other three, so some imbalance may be there at running. As we do not want to release any of the bearings for fear of disturbing the white metal, that is a diagnosis that is going to have to be made at initial fire-up. On a positive note, the coolant water-ways are all pretty good - little clogging except near the rear of the block - and the silt that has accumulated all seems to blow-out nicely!

So.. the work remains that we shall have to await a new head gasket/bolts, along with a few other goodies, from Meteor Spares. In the meantime, the core-plugs are going to be removed for a better scrape of the coolant jacket. All of the bores are now oiled, and the engine turns well with little play at any bearing, so a check of the oilways will ensue by external pressure-testing with fresh oil. The engine does appear to have been rebored just prior to lay-up, as very little (if any) wear-ridge exists on any bore, and the piston-clearances are all fine. Very little carbon was evident on the combustion chamber faces, so cleaning-up with Scotchbrite was relatively easy. We believe that the sparking-plugs were removed to wind Lucy out of her old digs on the handle, and that is why they were missing (now located under the scuttle...). We still need to check for flatness on all relavant faces (the bottom-hose elbow has been desperately over-tightened onto its gasket, so the face is requiring a mill to true it up), otherwise we hope at this stage that the engine is good to go.

I will try to get the photos for work done so-far linked as soon as possible - I have a slight technical issue on the PC!

[TimMoore]

Compared with what we found on our 16's engine on strip down in late 1985 (it was firing eventually on 5 cylinders when we drive it from Antwerp to Brussels and burning copious amounts of oil) you seem to have a useable engine Stuart. Pity the spark plugs had been out for so long but Skye's dampness over the past 7 years or so, would have entered the chambers anyway via the carb inlet and caused some surface corrosion to inlet side of things.

At least once you've reassembled the initial strip down, and cleaned out the carb and put in new points she should fire from what you have suggested.

Is the clutch free?