Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 light)

Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 light)

Postby Frost015 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:17 pm

I would appreciate guidance before I make changes ..

Have overhauled recently acquired Rover 12 rear brakes (new shoes, disassembled, cleaned and reinstalled expanders, adjusters, and linkage .. making sure the expander housing floats, etc).

However when I move to the front brakes, I am confused ... The shoe expanders and adjusters are in the same plane as the rear brakes (I.e horizontal), whereas everything I read indicates that the expander for the front brakes should be at the bottom of the back plate (as shown on Plate R page 56 of the RSR Rover 1934-38 Parts List reprint).

The car has sat (previous owners) for the past 8 years, but prior to that new king pins were fitted at the front, and work was reportedly done to the brakes.

My questions are:

1. Do ALL Rover 12 cars from 1936 have front brakes as per Plate R (with expanders at the very bottom ... different from the rear). ?

2. Is there a consensus that my front brakes have been reassembled incorrectly at some time in the past ? (I can then rebuild as per Plate R). ?

Photos attached (if I can do this). As existing, the expander housing can’t work (rod movement impossible to accommodate steering movement). I didn’t check before disassembling, but am pretty convinced that somehow the rods with cones at the end must have been fitted into the expander housing 90 degrees ‘wrong’ to allow rod sideways movement ... without this the expander housings would have been broken.

Hope all of this is clear !

This is my 1st post, and I can’t see how to add photos ... will post this, then try to add later.

Photos here : https://imgur.com/a/xiICaZi

If anyone has photos showing front brakes for a 1936 car (rear of shoe mounting plate showing position of adjuster; linkage forward the steering box) this would be appreciated.
Frost015
 
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Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby TonyG » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:12 am

Hi,

Your car has been reassembled incorrectly. Front brake adjusters should be at the top and actuators at the bottom. Any other arrangement won’t allow the steering to turn.

When you set up the brake rods and linkages, ensure that the swivel/compensator that mounts on the o/s spring/axle bolts puts the rods in the correct plane to pull straight on the actuators. Otherwise the rods will stress against the slots in the actuators when the wheels are turned and can cause them to break. Replacement actuators are available but are very expensive so take care of the ones you have!

The braking system is simple but effective once set up correctly. Most play in the system is in the Clevis pins, which can be replaced. Holes can be welded up and re-drilled etc to get a perfect fit. The compensator on the front axle wears and it can be a fiddle to get it operating correctly.

Both my cars had oil contamination on rear brakes due to half shaft oil seals. Worth checking before fitting new linings. I had my rear hubs machined to take modern seal, as shown in workshop manual. However, when I bought new seals and bearings for my P2 from Polar Bearings in Colchester they said it was possible to source direct replacements for the metal/leather seals in the earlier cars like yours. They need to see the old bearings and seals to identify the equivalent parts.

If you do need pictures, contact me directly and I will sort something out. My P2 12 is without bodywork on the front end at present so it’s easy to take pictures. Set up is identical to my 36 12 like yours.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Tony Gilbert

P.s lovely dog you have in your attached pictures!
Tony Gilbert

P1 12 Tourer
P2 12 6 Light Saloon
Discovery 3
Discovery Sport
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Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby Frost015 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:05 pm

Thanks Tony,

Much appreciated ... and I will be sure to check straight run of rods to actuators when I do it. The rear axle has been (by previous owner) overhauled, reportedly with new seals, and no sign of any oil leaks. Will keep a close eye on it once It’s on the road.

Much of the harder work on this car has been done in the past, nearly all brightware rechromed, seats re-leathered (very nicely, keeping bases and hardware), new radiator, new king pins, reconditioned steering box. In process of restoring the woodwork and dashboard. Bodywork ready for painting, once I get the roof fully renovated properly.

Car No: 612915. Reg No: 155 XUN (not its original number .. I need to do research to find some history on this car).

Have had several P4’s in the past (30 years ago), and now have time to enjoy the pre-war Rovers.

Kind regards,

Ian

PS ... Dog ??? Is my link working properly ?? When I click, I get to 6 pictures of my Rover 12 ...surely you can’t be saying that my beautiful car is a canine ! Wait until you see the finished results ... might be a year or two before we get there though ...

Here are some more early pics ...

https://imgur.com/a/muw2zfS
1936 Rover 12 Saloon
Frost015
 
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Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby luli » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:03 pm

See pictures here (12 tourer, 1947) https://wp.me/pXLKy-3An
Rover 10 1946 RHD
Rover 10 1947 LHD
Rover 12 1947 tourer LHD
http://lulisml.wordpress.com/
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Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby Frost015 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:54 pm

Luli,

I am an avid reader of your fascinating (and wonderfully photographed) posts / website, but hadn’t seen that thread of pics ... I really must get page translation understood and applied ..

Many thanks for the link, and another confirmation that whoever last did the front wheels / brakes managed to reassemble the back Plate 90 degrees “out” .. will get on with rectifying this mistake in a few days time (my unheated garage isn’t ideal in UK winter).

Ian
1936 Rover 12 Saloon
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Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby Frost015 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:43 pm

Hi Luli,

I now have your pages translated (downloaded Google Chrome on the iPad instead of using safari, and now I get the “page translation” pop up ... now I can read the words that go with the photos !

Ian
Last edited by Frost015 on Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
1936 Rover 12 Saloon
Frost015
 
Posts: 8
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Location: Stamford (Lincs)

Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby luli » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:26 pm

Glad to know that. Just remember that "Mr. Robert Green" should be read as "the green Rover" etc. If something doesn't make sense just leave a comment (in english) in the post and I will try to clarify.
Last edited by luli on Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rover 10 1946 RHD
Rover 10 1947 LHD
Rover 12 1947 tourer LHD
http://lulisml.wordpress.com/
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Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby TonyG » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:53 am

Ian,

Thanks for the additional pictures of your car. Certainly a lovely old girl and I look forward to seeing it back on the road in the, not too distant, future. Interesting to see that you are in Lincolnshire; my Tourer originated from Maidens garage in Sleaford and, while that is no longer operating, it is my intention to visit with the car at some point. If/when I get around to that perhaps I can also get to Stamford and picture our cars together?
Regarding your car’s history, I can highly recommend delving into any leads you find. The Internet is a fabulous aid and I have unearthed a load of pre-war pictures of my Tourer via a chap in Sleaford whose Father worked at Maidens garage. However, I only found him by tracking down a chap who sent a ‘bygone’ picture a number of years ago to the local paper of flooding ‘taken from the rear of Maidens garage’. Surprising how the slimmest of leads can lead to great information. Although I drew a blank on my car, the original registration authority for your car may still hold records. Before the DVLA was established, the original authority maintained the ownership record for all cars they registered and a number of these still exist. I’ve yet to discover who owned my car TL 6200 after Billy Maidens sold it - probably during the War - and when my Uncle bought it in 1958. I keep looking though as I’m sure there must be a family out there with memories of a family member who owned it. The histories of these lovely cars is fascinating as it’s easy to forget just how old they are and the developments that have occurred since they first hit the road. For example, our cars were being driven about before RJ Mitchell put pen to paper to design the Spitfire fighter plane at a time when many people had never been in a car of any sort!

Regarding the ‘dog’, I realise now that there was a post following yours on the IMGUR link you gave. It was video of a delightful golden retriever who had a penchant for wandering around with various items of underwear in its mouth! Hence my comment, but clearly not your dog. The post is no longer there and I wonder if I imagined it?

Tony Gilbert
Tony Gilbert

P1 12 Tourer
P2 12 6 Light Saloon
Discovery 3
Discovery Sport
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Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby Frost015 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:39 pm

Thanks for the interesting post ... yes, the history of my car is going to be fun to dig into. Last owner in Truro for 10 years, and then a bit hazy before that. Apparently the RSR does know of it, so will make some enquiries (I wonder who I should contact ? ).

I would love to have a tourer one of these days, so would be great to see your car. Do call in anytime you are over this way.

By getting to know this era of Rovers through this 1st (inexpensive) Light 6, I will eventually be better placed to know what I am looking at if and when the “right” more exotic model comes along ! That’s the plan anyway ...

Today I removed and refitted (in the correct orientation) the front brake back plates, and after cleaning and straightening the rods, and adjusting the front ‘Balance Lever Pivot’ (Plate R .. R61) all seems to be functioning well and without interference with wheels through full lock both ways. The angles look sensible, and I havent changed lengths of rods, but will need to check in detail following the guidance in the workshop manual and Girling Brakes publication. Will be blasting, red leading (yes, it’s still possible to buy the real stuff), undercoating, and black painting where necessary the back plates, etc. This can wait until spring / better garage temperatures.

Pics of the revised (hopefully correct) arrangement here:

https://imgur.com/a/aS6uMpc

Brake expander ‘dust covers’ not installed .. but will be before it goes on the road.

Ian
1936 Rover 12 Saloon
Frost015
 
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Re: Front Brakes (Girling Mechanical) - 1936 Rover 12 (6 lig

Postby TonyG » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:40 pm

Hi Ian,

Looking much better now that the back plates are in the right place. Well done, it is quite a puzzle!

Just a minor thing and I know you are only trial fitting the brakes, but I notice that the operating rod to the o/s brake is bent to align with the brake actuator. This may be correct for your car but both mine are straight. Looking at the pictures it appears that your brake compensator sits about 10mm higher on the swivel where it mounts on the spring. This may have been modified with extra packing so that the assembly clears the top of the leaf spring when it moves. Not a bad idea as rubbing on the spring top is an issue when the swivel bushes and pin wear, but it has resulted in the required bend in the rod. Perhaps other members can shed light on whether this is normal on some cars? Also I see that the rod to the n/s is fixed to the swivel with a nut and bolt, rather than a clevis pin. Again this may be acceptable but it’s not like mine so thought I’d mention.

When I painted my chassis and other under car parts, I used POR 15 rust prevention gloss black paint. It is made in USA and sold through Frost Automotive and, although quite expensive, is the best paint I’ve found to date and gives a superb finish. Not only does it bond to and neutralise rust, it actually hardens more when it gets damp. However, if you use it, take care not to get on the skin as it can’t be cleaned off and takes a week or so to wear off! Also you have to use a layer of cling film when re-sealing the tin as the paint will, effectively, weld it shut. They also do engine enamel, which is equally as good.

Good luck with all that and let me know if you are ever around Colchester and want a look at my cars. When I was building my Tourer from boxes of parts, I made a couple of trips to see David Moseley’s car to see how that was fitted together and took a load of pictures. Your car is in better shape than mine was but, if you think it would be helpful, you are welcome to visit.

Tony Gilbert.
Tony Gilbert

P1 12 Tourer
P2 12 6 Light Saloon
Discovery 3
Discovery Sport
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