Fuel system for P2 Tourer

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ThomasMoRo
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Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by ThomasMoRo » Sun Sep 01, 2024 2:08 pm

In addition to my P4 - 75 from 1958, I now also own a P2 Tourer from 1948.

The previous owner had an electric petrol pump from SU (type AZX1331) installed in series with the mechanical pump from AC.

See sketch
Image

The electric pump should help to get the engine running after a long period of inactivity, otherwise it does not need to be switched on.

Are you familiar with this procedure and arrangement?

The previous owner still has a 14 HP Saloon, in which this configuration is also installed to his satisfaction.

I was previously of the opinion that fuel could not be pumped through another pump. You would have to install an additional bypass.

Who can contribute to this?

Regards
Thomas
Rover P4 . 75 . 1958 & Rover Twelve P2 Tourer #179 - 1948

SHyslop
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by SHyslop » Sun Sep 01, 2024 3:23 pm

Dear Thomas

This is just drawn from my own experiences but hopefully something in it may be of use to you.

I've owned / still own several cars with their original fuel systems and others with modifications. The AC mechanical pump can have a rather unfairly bad reputation for a variety of reasons. Replacing it with an SU pump can solve some of these, but so would finding and solving the original problem. Having an electric pump in the circuit can be of use as long as exactly what it is doing is fully appreciated.

Now for some details. Starting at the back of the car (the fuel tank), if the pickup to the fuel and line and fuel line itself is blocked , or can become blocked, it won't matter what pump you have in the circuit. Establishing the fuel line to the pump is clear is the first step to good fuel delivery.

Next, be aware there are two types of SU pump. There are pumps which push and pumps which pull. A puller is at the front and that's the type you have, a pusher at the back. I've established to my own satisfaction, with 4 cars, that the 6 cylinder cars with a Solex carburettor, need a pusher but the four cylinder cars, with either an SU or a Solex, will be adequately served by a puller on the bulkhead.

The AC fuel pump worked reliably for many years and has provided petrol for what must have been millions of miles across the world. The failings in it today can be caused by 1) lack of air tightness in the top cover and/or valves, 2) wear in the actuating arm,3) blocked filer and dirt in the petrol chamber,4) worn diaphragm.

Fixing these will return a pump to optimum efficiency. One item which is not covered by most books is that overtightening of the cover screw will crack the casting it screws into and this will result in a lack of suction and can prove very difficult to identify. Also, the quality of new made reproduction valves (the ones in a metal cage) is, in my view, poor and when original AC valves are used, they usually prove to be satisfactory.

To the best of my knowledge, even for cars that have covered more miles than most Rovers ever would- (I'm thinking of Austin 12 taxis, for example) (then there's Daimlers,Lanchesters,RM Rileys...similar mileages/use), no secondary firms made reproduction actuating arm in the 30s-50s. Either replacement pumps were so cheap that replacing the arm was never thought of ; and/or the arms wore so little that their replacement wasn't considered necessary.

A variety of new parts ,including filters,valves, screws and washers are all available from Flexolite.

Worn diaphragms of new material supposed E10 resistant are now made.

The pump should be able now to suck, from dry, petrol to the carburettor in under about 20 strokes of the hand priming lever, less of course if there is petrol in the line. If the car is left unused for lengthy periods then an electric pump placed before the mechanical pump would remove the need to use the hand primer. However, the pump will only pump the petrol to the petrol chamber in the pump and no further. I have a 10 with a separate low pressure electric pump controlled by a separate switch so it can be used when needed and switched off thereafter.

The valves of the mechanical pump can be removed and an electric pump placed in the circuit thereby delivering fuel direct from the tank to the carburettor.

Another method is to have an electric pump fitted with T junctions enabling excess fuel to go back round 'the circuit', the bypass you you
have mentioned in your post. I have a 1935 Daimler 15 with this arrangement and it seems to be satisfactory.

In short, there are various ways of making it all work but the main thing is to have whichever arrangement working well. If you wanted an extra "insurance policy", you could fit a T piece after the electric pump, a two way tap, then another T piece after into the line to the carburettor and that would enable the electric pump to work in place of the mechanical pump in the event of the mechanical pump failing,

Out of interest, I thought the 47 cars had an electric pump fitted rather than a mechanical one. I have a 47 12 exported to Jersey and it is so equipped. I wonder if that means your car was destined for the Home market originally? Just curious!

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ThomasMoRo
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by ThomasMoRo » Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:05 am

SHyslop wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2024 3:23 pm
Dear Thomas

This is just drawn from my own experiences but hopefully something in it may be of use to you...

...

Out of interest, I thought the 47 cars had an electric pump fitted rather than a mechanical one. I have a 47 12 exported to Jersey and it is so equipped. I wonder if that means your car was destined for the Home market originally? Just curious!
Thank you for the detailed explanations.

Now back to my tourer. According to the chassis number with the "R" it would be an export model.

But since the tourer was originally restored for the English owner, the mechanical pump was probably "kept" and only an electric pump was installed "for safety".

Regards
Thomas
Rover P4 . 75 . 1958 & Rover Twelve P2 Tourer #179 - 1948

David2021
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by David2021 » Mon Sep 02, 2024 2:21 pm

For what it’s worth! Both my 1947/8 tourers (technically export, but UK supplied)have bulkhead SU pumps. One was inside the car(!) but I preferred to take the risk of vapourising fuel to having a potential leak under the dash! I have the heat shield in place with a bit of insulation added & have had negligible problems with fuel supply.

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ThomasMoRo
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by ThomasMoRo » Mon Sep 02, 2024 2:44 pm

David2021 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2024 2:21 pm
For what it’s worth! Both my 1947/8 tourers (technically export, but UK supplied)have bulkhead SU pumps. One was inside the car(!) but I preferred to take the risk of vapourising fuel to having a potential leak under the dash! I have the heat shield in place with a bit of insulation added & have had negligible problems with fuel supply.
Many thanks for your information.

Regards
Thomas
Rover P4 . 75 . 1958 & Rover Twelve P2 Tourer #179 - 1948

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ThomasMoRo
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by ThomasMoRo » Mon Sep 09, 2024 1:49 pm

I would now want to disconnect the mechanical AC pump and disconnect the copper pipes at A and B.

I would then connect A and B on the pump side with a hose.

Then a pipe separation at C and a new hose from filter D to connection C, which leads to the carburettor.

.
AC Pump modifications with A B C D.jpg
AC Pump modifications with A B C D.jpg (57.35 KiB) Viewed 11296 times

In the other photo you can see the copper pipe loop to the SU carburettor.

Should you keep the loop and use the new connection C or is it better to run the new hose directly from filter D to the carburettor flange?

.
from petrol filter to SU carb.jpg
from petrol filter to SU carb.jpg (44.68 KiB) Viewed 11296 times
Rover P4 . 75 . 1958 & Rover Twelve P2 Tourer #179 - 1948

David2021
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by David2021 » Fri Sep 20, 2024 10:15 pm

As already mentioned, I am pretty sure that the “R” export cars all had SU pumps and Solex carbs.
I would simplify the system and ignore the mechanical pump…you can remove it and fit a plate (and gasket!) to seal it off (fractional power gain!!) Perhaps fit filters before the pump and also before the carb if you are concerned about debris ( I probably unwisely rely on the gauze at the carb!) I would keep the number of joins to a minimum! I had no vaporising nor overheating problem with my 12 tourer in Germany a couple of years ago in July. It was happy at 60mph on the Autobahn…I do have a decent radiator though!
Interesting that you use an SU carburettor, I have a brand new one from a Wolseley14 which I hope to adapt one day!

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ThomasMoRo
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by ThomasMoRo » Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:30 am

That is now my solution:

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AC Pump direct connection_8.jpg
AC Pump direct connection_8.jpg (44.31 KiB) Viewed 8042 times
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neue hardi pumpe eingebaut - hinten rechts _8.jpg
neue hardi pumpe eingebaut - hinten rechts _8.jpg (65.09 KiB) Viewed 8042 times
new electric hardi pump under the rear seats with filter from tank to pump and extra pump fuse for 12 volt

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from Petrol Filter directly to the SU Carb _8.jpg
from Petrol Filter directly to the SU Carb _8.jpg (34.58 KiB) Viewed 8042 times
Rover P4 . 75 . 1958 & Rover Twelve P2 Tourer #179 - 1948

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luli
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by luli » Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:10 am

I can see the exhaust pipe just under the pump, heating it up. Not a good position to choose, both from safety and fuel temp considerations.
Also, just specifying "Hardy" is not enough. High pressure? Low pressure? either are not the correct one by position/pressure.
Finally, rubber pipes are better not be used where they can hardly be monitored, or absolutely necessary. Rigid pipes should be used over there.
Rover 10 1946 RHD
Rover 10 1947 LHD
Rover 12 1947 tourer LHD
http://lulisml.wordpress.com/

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ThomasMoRo
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Re: Fuel system for P2 Tourer

Post by ThomasMoRo » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:43 pm

luli wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:10 am
I can see the exhaust pipe just under the pump, heating it up. Not a good position to choose, both from safety and fuel temp considerations.
Also, just specifying "Hardy" is not enough. High pressure? Low pressure? either are not the correct one by position/pressure.
Finally, rubber pipes are better not be used where they can hardly be monitored, or absolutely necessary. Rigid pipes should be used over there.
The exhaust is more than 30 cm away from the pump, which is not a problem, especially as there are also the spring assemblies in between, which also dissipate the heat.

https://www.hardi-automotive.com/produk ... -bis-60ps/

HARDI Kraftstoffpumpe 13312 (12V / bis 60PS)
Förderleistung: 60-80l/h
Druck in bar: 0,13-0,20
Anlaufspannung: 8,5-9,5V
Nennspannung: 12V
Stromaufnahme: 1,5-1,9A
Saughöhe: <1,5mtr.
Gewicht: ca. 900g
Stutzen: 8mm schwenkbar
Rover P4 . 75 . 1958 & Rover Twelve P2 Tourer #179 - 1948

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