Forum discssions

RobHomewood
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:04 pm

Forum discssions

Post by RobHomewood » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:32 pm

I was disappointed to see that the forum admin had locked a discussion about voting methods at shows. I dont know the member who complained and dont know whether there is any substance in his complaint but surely it would be better to have an open and ocnstructive discussion on the forum (as long as no-one gets abusive or personal)? The chairman has said that the members complaint has been noted but I feel that it would be better for the club that the issue were NOT swept under the carpet. If there was no foundation for the complaint lets hear why from the committee- or other members - or if there are improvements which could be made to the voting methods why not thrash out the options on the open?
By the way I have no axe to grind here - I have not entered any shows and I dont really understand the complaint so I have nothing to add to the discussion myself.
Does anyone else agree?
Rob Homewood

SNOBHILL39
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:10 pm
Location: Suffolk

Re: Forum discssions

Post by SNOBHILL39 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:04 pm

I did attend the rally and my only gripe is that there was nothing at the show other than a grand selection of cars to look at. I was hoping to see some side stalls selling Rover and other cars bits n pieces and memorabilia.
I was unaware of a row over voting as it was raining so hard at times I was sat it the almost dry tourer and decided to leave at 2.15pm after casting my vote for the B class car I thought was better than mine. :lol: And I may have won a raffle prize, but will never know.
I agree if there is a problem it is better we can all have a look at the comments and reply if we so desire.
Gerry F capon

apkok
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:34 pm

Re: Forum discssions

Post by apkok » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:47 pm

It does come across as censorship to lock a controversial topic. Obviously admin has to address any issues of abusive and inappropriate language, but it seemed quite a civilised conversation.

chris dancey
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:20 pm
Location: Brighton & Paphos, Cyprus

Re: Forum discssions

Post by chris dancey » Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:45 am

Hello Everyone,

I am now sat next to my pool in Cyprus and a cursory look at this site revealed this debate.

I for one are in agreement with the comments here and I feel that it should have been thrashed out on the forum...surely thats what its for ?

I am an avid and long term Rover ( also MG ) enthusiast and I try to see all sides in a debate, this can only be achieved if one is allowed too by being party to all views and comments. I agree that if there is offensive content than this should be blocked, but that blocking should not form a censorship because it does not follow the ' party line '.

I am deeply involved with the MMM ( Pre-War MG ) Forum and post many comments and items for debate, and I have to say that the forum is very active ( sometimes as many as twenty new subjects each day are posted, many are thrashed out to a fitting conclusion and the rest at least come to a compromise ).

I attended the rally at Bury St. Edmunds. I left Brighton at 7am and circumnavigated the M25 / M11, I put in a lot of effort to load my Coupe with the memorabilia ( which included an original 1938 wind up record player and records ).

At the show I was assisted by committee members to erect my pergola, which was completed just before the rain started, I was assisted by Mike and Dirk ( from the States ) to get the memorabilia into the dry. I did not get to see any of the other vehicles as the rain precipitated all the afternoon and I did'nt wish to get soaked for the 150 mile journey home.

I did get to meet Joel Burgess ( one of our ' Tenors ' forum group whom I had not met before ) and other members who took shelter under my Pergola.

I for one did not vote, I did see Mike and Paul traversing the field under a brolly, probably judging.

I personally prefer the judging method where one gets to judge the whole field and not just one's own class, I have attended rallies where there has only been two cars in a class which does not allow for an competitiveness, but then it could be difficult to award ' specific ' model prizes. Its a difficult one.

I enjoyed the day, the weather did take the edge off, then we were in the UK and is too be expected. Here in Cyprus its 40 degrees and thats to be expected also.

For me its the taking part...I am not too concearned about prizes. Last year when I was awarded the Founder Members Trophy, I was discussing the principles of the Luvax system to a young enthusiast and had to be called over to the Rally HQ to collect the award...both were important to me, and still are.

Chris
1934 ( 1935 model ) P1 '10' Saloon RD 6160
1935 P1 '10' Saloon ( originally JB 6729 ) now VSJ 156
1946 P2 '14' Sports Saloon KPG 855
1933 MG J2 Cycle Wing Model APB 560
1933 MG J2 Competition Model ALX 124

lakesrally

Re: Forum discssions

Post by lakesrally » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:40 am

I couldn't attend the National this year because of other commitments last weekend so cannot comment on the specifics but I do agree that a judging form where you can judge all the classes is a better method. I was at the Scottish All Rover Rally a few weeks ago, also plagued by a downpour, and that too had a similar 'one-class' voting arrangement. It meant that the class my car was in, which had had only three cars, resulted in us all voting just between the other two cars, a bit of a lottery really. I have a preference for the awards such as furthest travelled, oldest car, spirit of the event etc. but realise that a lot of members do like the 'best in class' type of award. However, like Chris, the main reason I attend any of these events is to interact with friends, old and new, with a similar interest in the cars and to enjoy driving them.

johnwp5bcoupe
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:45 am
Location: Ely

Re: Forum discssions

Post by johnwp5bcoupe » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:21 pm

I too am surprised at the locking of the thread I will add "I did not shout" Mike I may have been annoyed at the lack of understanding of events and distortion of truth!
For those who don't know me I am a moderator on the Rover P5 Club forum, I have owned my coupe for 42 years, my task in showing is to promote the Rover at many open shows and over the years my coupe has done a lot to promote the Rover marque, over 40 open class wins, 2 Concourse awards and 2 car of the show awards.

My gripe is "not that my car didn't win" it has done so at the RSR 3 times in the last 4 years ( I didn't go to Blackpool it was a long way to go in the rain), anyway "well done to Mel the class winner" but surely it's about time the RSR changed the voting to allow a choice in all classes that way the situation that occurred would not have happened, I love going around all the other classes and am sure many others do so as well.

This post I hope will not be deleted or locked in all my years as a mod I have only locked one post and that was because the post was getting defamatory.

Thank you for your support.

Regards,
John.

GOY189
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: Forum discssions

Post by GOY189 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:45 pm

The thread was locked not to hide or censor anything or to suppress discussion of the National Rally voting process. Following the rant, I wanted to avoid a pointless ping pong match and allow a few days of cooling down.

John, your most recent post is, on the whole, more reasonably expressed if understated in places. The point is taken with regard to voting and I and the committee are open to considering changes. But it would be a mistake to make any without careful deliberation. My two pennyworth is more entrants in each class would yield a better result.

Incidentally we have tried the vote in all classes approach previously and adopted the current method in part because of the challenges of collating votes later in the day when ralliers are eager to go home. We also found ralliers were put off voting full stop if they were given too much to do. Nonetheless, we need to start a discussion on dealing better with classes with low entry levels, so here are some points to consider.

• Any self judging system is weak if there are low numbers in the class or voting
• Any system of voting will deliver a result to the car receiving most votes, whether this is the best car is another question.
• No voting system is perfect.
• The system of voting used has served us well over the past 10 years at least, with members of similar vehicles choosing a winner.
• When there is a tie or no votes in a class, at present, the Committee intervenes to determine a result.
• At present, fewer entrants for a class means fewer votes. (John, you may know why the P5 club failed to advertise the event in spite of being advised. More P5s attending would surely have meant more votes in those classes.)
• Whilst everyone gets the opportunity to vote, not everyone returns their voting paper, so fewer votes result than voting papers handed out. This is worse at events with trade stalls etc.
• I’m not sure what evidence there is to suggest that there will be votes in every class on a larger paper, experience suggests otherwise.
• The Current voting paper is reasonably simple to collate, though last year’s clerical error that resulted in an incorrect presentation still haunts me.
• As we have 18 classes, the voting paper for one vote in each class would be the size of an A4 portrait format sheet, split vertically, (I have just established). Currently it is A6, that is, four per A4 sheet.
• Collating across 18 classes rather than 1 at a time, means 17 more opportunities to introduce errors without any guarantee of more votes in a particular class. You will understand that I am keen to avoid errors.
• Your committee already work hard at the rally to deliver a fun experience, (not helped this year by the rain gods!!) and collate the results.

John, what I find unacceptable is attacks on the committee and my integrity and that of my colleagues, hard workers all of us! For example implied irregularities in the voting process, coercion when presenting awards? – (incorrect presentation due to a clerical error and sorted out quickly after the event). Distortion of the truth? No committee members out judging? None of them true.

Would you allow such attacks on the P5 Forum?

I am open to reasonable conversation, and have a reasonably thick skin (recently reduced due to 5/2 diet!). However I don’t intend to get into further discussion about who did or said what or at what volume during or after the National rally this year, and be advised that any further attacks on the committee or our integrity will not be tolerated. I too hope that we will not have to lock the thread.

Mike

chris dancey
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:20 pm
Location: Brighton & Paphos, Cyprus

Re: Forum discssions

Post by chris dancey » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:09 am

Thanks Mike for your informed reply, it goes a long way to explain the difficulties of the one type and the whole show voting systems, neither is perfect. Maybe a reduction in the number of classes eg. One prize for P1-P3 class, one for P4-P5, etc. or even just pre-war and post war. Is a prize for other marques a requirement ?

I for one know how difficult running a rally is, I have organised MMM ( Pre-war MG ) ones and it is a very time consuming and difficult job, i am very appreciative of the efforts of our committee for their sterling efforts despite the adverse conditions , especially like at this years National which was a very difficult situation due to the rain.

I would like to see more entrants dress to complement their vehicle, Rover Retro, Goodwood Revival, Oxford & Shoreham Airshow style,...another thought or best costume. Jo and Tim Ralph organise a splendid ' Retro ' weekend which for us contains all the features mentioned, again a lot of organisation and hard work.

Thanks from me to the committee members for their time and commitment on our behalf.

Chris
1934 ( 1935 model ) P1 '10' Saloon RD 6160
1935 P1 '10' Saloon ( originally JB 6729 ) now VSJ 156
1946 P2 '14' Sports Saloon KPG 855
1933 MG J2 Cycle Wing Model APB 560
1933 MG J2 Competition Model ALX 124

johnwp5bcoupe
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:45 am
Location: Ely

Re: Forum discssions

Post by johnwp5bcoupe » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:45 am

Thank you for the comprehensive reply Mike!

I have at no time have I attacked the committee, I merely pointed out that I "Had Not Shouted" at you (if I had you would know the difference) as I stated the negative muddled response made me annoyed and your statement/mutterings as I walked away did not help :?

I also pointed out in the past mistakes have been made even on small entry classes, plus for a fact as I stated you or any other member never viewed the P5b's, as to the absence of cars in my class I know of some reasons but I have tried to support my class in the RSR, we had this discussion at the NEC 2011!

We often have Ping Pong discussions on the P5 forum as long as they don't get to the point of stupidity they are never suppressed or locked this is what a Forum is for surely?

As an exhibitor like many other guys we spend many hours prepping our cars to present them to the public (other owners) in the best condition possible it helps promote the Marque as the fine example of British Engineering they are, so it is only fair the way they are judged is also fair! the RSR National at Blackpool was a good example Phil's P5b (and he wont mind me saying this as he is my fellow mod) his car is far from being a good example lots of rust etc! at the show the other P5b entrants because they didn't want a good car to win (other than their own) voted for Phil's so they came unstuck and his car got awarded the best example! so making the judging a mockery :oops:

In respect to multi class judging it may take a bit more time I agree but it promotes interest in other classes and surely that is a good thing? I enjoy talking to other entrants and discussing other classes with the entrants is a great experience (in the sun) !!

So to be fair to the guys who are proud to present their cars a better way of judging must be found IMHO?

I am sorry if you feel I have caused you any grief Mike I have no personal gripe against you any committee member I know you time is given freely and is much appreciated 8-) but I do get on my Soap Box and I will express an opinion if I feel an injustice has been done.


Regards,
John.

partviking
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:53 am

Re: Forum discssions

Post by partviking » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:34 am

There are X number of cars in a class and you are asked to vote for a car "other than your own" which is fair enough, so you do the right thing and vote for a car you like! but you are the only one to do so so the car is given the class win because you are the only one who bothered! Is this a fair way of judging the best example present?
Actually John I think it is.

I also attended the show and of course the conditions marred the day somewhat and made judging difficult compared to a day when you can chat to owners and really get a good look at the cars. I suppose the bottom line is "what do you look for when judging"?
Having read your original post I have to say I think the question you should be asking is why so few P5 cars attended? As Mike rightly said a greater attendance would lead to a greater number of votes in that particular class. When you consider there were (if memory serves) only 3 or 4 P5's there for which there were two awards so to some extent the judging was fair in that the ratio of voters to cars was not different to any other marque in attendance.

Changing the voting system is IMHO a negative response, surely encouraging more P5 members to attend is the way forward isn't it? Do you actually know why so few cars attended? Interestingly Bury St Edmunds is but a short drive from Duxford where the P5 National is being held so I doubt the 'location' argument is valid. I have started a thread on the P5 forum to see what the response is from P5 members as perhaps there was some strange glitch to this years date I've missed. Last years RSR National was well attended so it does seem strange.

Personally I like the current judging system, perhaps the inclusion of a 'car of the show' with a vote in any class may be an option but changing the whole system is I think not the way .

If judging is an issue for some then fine lets have a discussion but do feel as I said above the answer has to be better attendance and more importantly any change should be sanctioned by RSR members via Freewheel, it is after all their Club and whilst Forums are great for open debate I'm sure well all agree the fair way forward is for RSR members to decide.

Thanks to Dirk who I believe covered the cost of the awards and to Mike and the committee for the day, very difficult for those in charge but hey this is the U K and as we all know it RAINS here frequently.

Regards

Alan

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