What is a P1?

[lakesrally]

This should stir a few responses. I have now received 70 entries for the Lakes Rally next weekend, more than we have had book in advance for quite a lot of years. I produce an entrants list in age (of the car) order and usually put P2, P3, P4 etc as a model type for the appropriate cars. However I have two entries from 1935, one a 12hp and one a 14hp. I have been calling all the Wilkes cars P2 from 1934 up to the P3s but should I refer to any 1934 and 1935 cars as P1? I know that we do not think Rover ever used these prefixes before the war and that the club has tended to apply them retrospectively but would P1 be correct only on the 10 and 12hp cars or all cars from 1934 and 1935? Or do we call them all P2 and forget about P1?

[Phil - Nottingham]

I always thought "P" referred to the Post-war cars of which the 1939/40 10/14/16 versions when relaunched in 1946 were true P2's which looked the same as the pre-war ones but are not and neither is the quality.

The Hillman bodied type D backs 10/12's , Streamliners and Hastings type coupes up to 1936/37 are not P1's and the new quality Rover coachwork notch back 12/14/16/20 and the later 10, 10 coupe and dropheads were not P2's either.

James Taylor has suggested that P1 (like a Mk1 did not exist until the a Mk2 came out) was an unborn prototype but not the small M type.

If there is not a definitive answer now there never will be.

After all the last Mk4 P4's of the 1960's did not have any logic on Rover Co's part as there were never any other "marks" of these cars before them

My 1938 16 Saloon is often called a P2 by others and me sometimes as the explanation which is not verifiable is too long!

[Paul Gregory]

Stewart,
It is strange that you should have posted this yesterday as the thought had crossed my mind th same day that we really ought to have a definitive guide to the various models. Whilst some of us have been around Rovers for a good few years there are many who haven't so they may well not know the differences between P4 - 6 even, let alone the challenges around the earlier models. I think it would be helpful to have a photo guide to them all to help people out. I had therefore mentally made a note to start putting something together. Quite when it manages to convert from thought to actual output is of course another matter. I am thinking of starting with the easy ones first, and then start worrying about what a P1 and P2 is...I can see from Phil's response that is going to be a challenge to get top the bottom of. There are of course numerous varieties within each of the model ranges, so I would hope to gradually build out the definitions to cover as many of these as possible.

Oh, and no I am not sure what the definitive answer on what a P1 is. My understanding was that the P1 designation was never officially used (and I think the same is actually the case for P2, but will happily stand corrected), however I thought that in general the P2 designation was used for the 'sloping windscreen' models from about '36 onwards, with the more upright styling being P1's. This does not of course provide a clean cut off date as at least the 10 carried on beyond '36 with it's earlier upright body style. It doesn't solve where the Streamlines and tourers fit of course either. My initial thought was that they would fit in with the equivalent saloons, but of course the streamlines spanned '35 & '36, potentially making the '35's P1's and the 36's P2's (assuming I'm right thinking that the 14 changed to the sloping windscreen style in 36 like the 12 did). The same position exists for the tourers with them spreading across the '35 - '36 change point. I'd probably argue that the Tickfords and '47 12 tourers are P2's, but no doubt that may prove to be a contentious view! So, time to stand back and see what other respnses come in. Am I going to get shot down in flames?

Paul

[Phil - Nottingham]

Flames duly shot

Your interpretaion of P1/P2 was the first put about in the 1960/70's - although P was was not appraently an offical term used till post war as you say (as does James Taylor!)

As I wrote whether it it meant P for post or P for Prtototye or something else even the great James Taylor has not not found out and he has already provided the most definitive history ever which he thinks P2 does NOT relate to the the pre-war sloping windscreen cars -

If they were the prewar ones this would not be logical anyway as these sloping windscreen cars were at least the 4th Wilkes Rovers to come from Coventry pre-war. Rover Co howvever was never ever logical

IMHO P2 clearly relates to the post-war Solihull sloping windcreen cars based and looking ALMOST the same on the Coventry (but not as good ) 1940 models

I think there are just a couple of variations on the same theme actually so this will never be resolved but P2 will always mean to me the postwatr cars and mine is pre-war so it is not a P2

[andrewmcg]

As already mentioned the 'P' prefix seems a variable feast which as far as we know never had the blessing of the Rover company and it's origins are very unclear.

However when I was the Pre 1950 Registrar I used to get a steady supply of photos from new members of their cars some described as P1, others as P2. For what it is worth, rightly or wrongly, I began to distinguish between P1 and P2 by the front wings, as did/do a number of members.
If you look at a photo of the front view of these cars, look at the front wings.
In the earlier models, 1934-36 and up to 1938 for the 10 models, they sweep upwards and outwards from the radiator shell and there is a noticeable gap at the outer edge between the scroll end of the bumper and the wing, and in a photo of a side view of the front wing it has a gentle sweeping curve at the rear towards the running board.
On the later cars the front edge of the wing almost follows the line of the front bumper right out to the scroll and there is no gap where it meets the scroll. In a photo of a side view of the front wing it turns almost at right angles behind the wheel to meet the running board. I have heard these later wings referred to in RSR circles as 'helmet wings' !!! .
I have found with the front wings of both the early and later models, this is the case regardless of whether the car is a saloon, sports saloon, tourer, streamline, or a drophead. Some of the photos in James Taylor's book of 'The Classic Rovers" confirm this finding.

This line of interpretation, has no official blessing, just my thoughts, which I share with you all.
Is it safe to use the front wings to differentiate between P1 and P2 models ??? what are you thoughts??
As a closing "shot" - after 40 years of Rovering with a variety of cars with both types of wings, I have always felt the flowing lines of the earlier wings (P1) were more graceful, but as they say 'one man's meat is another man's poison'

Happy Rovering to you all as I now retire to the safety of my "Morrison Shelter"
Regards Andrew

[tholder]

Hi folks,
Now I have sorted my login I can reply!
I replied on OldRovers exciting a lot of comment. Way back the old RSR Committee adopted P2 as a descriptor for all models 1934 - 1947.
However since '2' is more than '1' some people have been trying to find a reason for 'P1', I ask why? Such changes made over the years were
not well defined and varied model to model, surely use of model year would be more definitive.
I see no reason for introducing the P1 complication.
Tony Holder

[andrewmcg]

Evening all
It seems a shame to me that exchanges on this post ever switched to the Yahoo site where there has been quite a lot of interesting response/input, which members of the Forum only have not had a chance to see.
I am happy with either site but feel it is both polite and easier to stick to the original site on a particular post or subject because not everyone is a member of both sites, and it is quite obvious some have their distinct preference.
Judging by various comments it also seems to me a distinct division between the two sites is developing, Yahoo site for older cars/members and the Forum for younger cars/members. Is this the right way to go for a club who claims to cater for 'all types of Rovers'??
I as an older member am very interested in both 'old and young Rovers', and have owned as everyday cars Rovers from a P4 right through to my current pair of 75's, and I know this is the case with many RSR members. '
Regards
Andrew McGovern

[Phil - Nottingham]

Thakyou for actually agreeing with me I had the electronic verison of being shouted down (as usual) for questioning this ridiculous policy.

At least you have the answer, P1 and P2 seems to have been an invention of the RSR long past which is convenient and has some simple logic behind it for everyday use

[chris dancey]

1934 (1935 ) model '10' Saloon ...D. Back. 6 Light. I have always referred to my car as a P2...and probably always will. Chris Dancey

[Phil - Nottingham]

The current logic is that yours a P1! But as debated there appears to be no such official or even official Rover Co classification till the P3 arrived so confusing as it is is everyone will use their own interpretation as is theire right